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 Buckingham and the princes - a question

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MAHibbard

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PostSubject: Buckingham and the princes - a question   Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:21 am

I am currently reading a new book on the life of Rhys ap Thomas ("The Man Who Killed Richard III" by Susan Fern), who according to tradition struck the blow that killed Richard III at Bosworth (yes, another topic, but bear with me). While reading a section dealing with events at the time of Buckingham's rebellion, the author states that when captured, Buckingham admitted to having killed the princes. Unfortunately, I didn't see a notation, endnote or footnote indicating the source for this claim. Now, I know that there have been a number of people who have speculated that Buckingham had a hand in their demise, but I don't recall ever coming across anything in the historical record that specific and conclusive.

Can anyone help clarify this for me? What records or documents might be the source for this claim?


Last edited by MAHibbard on Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Constantia

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PostSubject: Re: Buckingham and the princes - a question   Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:25 pm

Unfortunately, the author is mistaken. Buckingham begged to speak to Richard, but Richard refused to see or hear him. I know of no document stating that he confessed to anything, even plotting against Richard. The specific charges against him, as I'm sure you know, are stated in his attainder by Parliament (which, in passing Titulus Regius, treated Edward ex-V as alive but illegitimate).
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MAHibbard

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PostSubject: Re: Buckingham and the princes - a question   Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:38 pm

That was always my understanding, that whatever Buckingham wanted to say to Richard pretty much went unsaid, as Richard refused to see or speak to him, and therefore is the subject of much speculation, but that's about it.

I thought perhaps recently that something had come to light that I wasn't aware of, because when I read the line about Buckingham admitting that the princes were dead, my reaction was along the lines of, "Then how is it I haven't heard or read anything about this?"

Thanks for confirming what I thought I knew.  Wink
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phaecilia

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PostSubject: Re: Buckingham and the princes - a question   Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:28 am

MAHibbard wrote:
I am currently reading a new book on the life of Rhys ap Thomas ("The Man Who Killed Richard III" by Susan Fern), who according to tradition struck the blow the killed Richard III at Bosworth (yes, another topic, but bear with me). While reading a section dealing with events at the time of Buckingham's rebellion, the author states that when captured, Buckingham admitted to having killed the princes. Unfortunately, I didn't see a notation, endnote or footnote indicating the source for this claim. Now, I know that there have been a number of people who have speculated that Buckingham had a hand in their demise, but I don't recall ever coming across anything in the historical record that specific and conclusive.

Can anyone help clarify this for me? What records or documents might be the source for this claim?

Hello MA,

It would be interesting to know why this author thinks Buckingham said he'd killed Edward IV's sons.

I'm not likely to read this book soon, so I can't contact her saying that I appreciate her research, and I'd appreciate her source for the statement that Buckingham admitted to killing the princes after his capture.

I've googled "Susan Fern + Man Who Killed Richard III," but I didn't find a Susan Fern website with a "Contact Me" or a "Contact the Author" button on the publisher's website.  So I'm not quite saying you should make the effort to track her down and ask her to give you her source(s).   Smile   But if you feel like making the effort I'd appreciate seeing her answer, if she's willing to answer you.

phaecilia
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MAHibbard

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PostSubject: Re: Buckingham and the princes - a question   Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:33 pm

I can't say for certain, but she might be a member of one of the groups I belong to over on Facebook. If so, perhaps I can ask her via a wall post.

I bought the book not only because of the Richard III connection, but also because according to old family genealogies, Sir Rhys is alleged to be a 15x great grandfather of mine. And due to Sir Rhys's grandson Rhys ap Griffith's marriage to Katherine Howard (dau. of Thomas Howard and Agnes Tilney), I also have John Howard (yes, that John Howard, 1st Duke of Norfolk) as a 15x great grandfather.

All that's missing is a direct connection to Richard III...but I do have a couple family lines going back to Angevins and Plantagenets via Henry II ==> John ==> Henry III ==> Edward I, so I guess I could claim a distant cousin-hood!  Very Happy 

Some of these family connections are tenuous at best, but they do make studying history a lot more fun!
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