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 The first use of the title

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upstartcrow

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PostSubject: The first use of the title   Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:37 pm

Does anybody know when this title was first used to describe Richard?
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Wednesday
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PostSubject: Re: The first use of the title   Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:28 am

The first time I remember seeing it was in Paul Murray Kendall's biography, Richard the Third, which was published in 1955. Part Two of "Book One: The King's Brother" was titled "Lord of the North."

Michael Hicks, no friendly biographer of Richard, says on page 7 of his book, Richard III as Duke of Gloucester: A Study in Character, "...the duke concentrated his attention on northern England and made himself, in Professor Kendall's words, 'The Lord of the North'." The note says that Hicks got this from Ross, Richard III, chapter 3, and from Kendall's own titling as well.

So that's two modern historians who say it originated with Kendall.
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NicolasLeBecheur

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PostSubject: Re: The first use of the title   Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:15 am

No primary source to quote here, but I imagine 'Lord of the North' would quickly have been used as an abbreviation of Richard's official title from 1472, of 'Lord President of the Council of the North', which doesn't exactly trip off the tongue.

It would certainly have been a de facto title, though not one de jure, and politically a useful one, since its use would have sent a clear message to Nevilles, Percys, Stanleys, Cliffords, Dacres and the rest, that the Family Firm of York was in charge.

I would be very surprised if the term hadn't occurred in some family correspondence somewhere (the Percys, for example), from the early 1470s.
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Wednesday
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PostSubject: Re: The first use of the title   Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:12 pm

NicolasLeBecheur wrote:
It would certainly have been a de facto title, though not one de jure, and politically a useful one, since its use would have sent a clear message to Nevilles, Percys, Stanleys, Cliffords, Dacres and the rest, that the Family Firm of York was in charge.

I would be very surprised if the term hadn't occurred in some family correspondence somewhere (the Percys, for example), from the early 1470s.


If it was used in correspondence or conversation, can you see Henry, Duke of Northumberland turning pea green with envy, or red with fury? "It's meeeee who should be Lord of the North."
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Constantia

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PostSubject: Re: The first use of the title   Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:21 pm

Wednesday wrote:


If it was used in correspondence or conversation, can you see Henry, Duke of Northumberland turning pea green with envy, or red with fury? "It's meeeee who should be Lord of the North."

I just checked the indenture between Richard, Duke of Gloucester and the Earl of Northumberland (quoted in Hammond and Sutton's Richard III: The Road to Bosworth Field, p. 62) and found that "Lord of the North" isn't used in that document. Of course, it could have been used in other contemporary documents, but I think it's Kendall's invention. Which doesn't lessen its usefulness, of course!
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khafara

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PostSubject: Re: The first use of the title   Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:47 pm

This discussion is a good reminder that as Lord President of the Council of the North, Richard would have been first among near-equals, accustomed to the wrangling of democratic processes.
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whitehound
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PostSubject: Re: The first use of the title   Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:39 am

I would guess that in most correspondence relating to the Council of the North it would be self-evident that it *was* relating to the Council of the North, so his title might have been shortened not to "Lord of the North" but to "Lord President".

It reminds me (if you'll pardon the language) of one of my all-time favourite graffitos, supposedly recorded from a telephone booth in Edinburgh, which said...

"Why do people write '[censored] the Pope'? Because they can't be bothered to write '[censored] the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland'."
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khafara

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PostSubject: Re: The first use of the title   Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:22 pm

I've been trying to find more than one source for the statement cited in Wikipedia's entry for "Council of the North" that Edward had established it in 1472 and that Richard was its first Lord President. The only source I can find is here: http://richardiii-ipup.org.uk/riii/43

I've also heard it said that it was Richard, not Edward, who officially established the Council as such; during Edward's reign it apparently was more loosely organized, and known simply as "The King's Household of the North".
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khafara

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PostSubject: Re: The first use of the title   Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:10 pm

whitehound wrote:
"Why do people write '[censored] the Pope'?  Because they can't be bothered to write '[censored] the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland'."

Ha!
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