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 Vatican records to be transcribed

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whitehound
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PostSubject: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:29 pm


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26676909

All 82,000 of the Vatican's manuscripts are to be digitized and made available online - and I'll be very surprised if there aren't some letters relevant to the pre-contract, the missing boys etc. in there somewhere.
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Constantia

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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:28 pm

whitehound wrote:


All 82,000 of the Vatican's manuscripts are to be digitized and made available online - and I'll be very surprised if there aren't some letters relevant to the pre-contract, the missing boys etc. in there somewhere.

Or to Richard and Anne's marriage. They must have had a papal dispensation for their own blood relationship as first cousins once removed in addition to the extant one relating to Richard's affinity to Edward of Lancaster.

Thanks for the great news. Now all we need is someone to find the relevant documents and translate them into English.
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:44 pm

What I'm really, really hoping for is a document mentioning Edward Brampton turning up on the continent along with two mystery page-boys....
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Constantia

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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:43 pm

Or Sir James Tyrrell since he was Richard's Master of Henchmen (pages). There's some mysterious connection between Tyrrell and Brampton (both absent from Bosworth) that would be worth exploring if we knew where to look.
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:07 pm

It seems to me that a lot of people, especially "traditionalist" historians, don't think about what it would be like to live in a society where nobody except the monarch and his immediate officers had access to fast communication; where there were no 'phones or TV or radio; where there were no photographs or even much if anything in the way of printed engravings yet; where even realistic painted portraiture was in its infancy.  

They think that because the boys weren't seen at the Tower after a certain date that means that they weren't seen anywhere, but in fact nobody who had not already seen them or their close relatives, or seen a good likeness of them, would have any clear idea what they looked like.  For most people, you were what you were wearing and if they took off their snazzy clothes and turned up as a couple of pages or grooms in Birmingham - or anywhere outside central London - there would be very few people who might recognize them.  So all "no longer at the Tower" means is "no longer at the Tower".
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Constantia

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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:33 pm

Good point. But, of course, even More and Vergil, living just thirty years later under similar conditions, interpreted "no longer at the Tower" as "dead." And later chroniclers interpreted More's fanciful tale as historic fact (ignoring his admission that he'd heard other rumors, including that one or both nephews had survived). Anyway, I do hope to learn more on the matter as more sources surface. Maybe the place to look is the Burgundian archives for Richard's and Margaret's secret correspondence. The more medieval records that are digitized and become available online free of charge, the better.
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:31 pm

This is true, but of course not having a record of where they were after they left the Tower opens up the possibility that they might be dead, and Virgil and More had a vested interest in interpreting it that way.

The Burgundian archives would be wonderful. Another possibility is the records (assuming any survive) of the Portuguese Jewish community of the time, which might include information on Brampton's movements. Even if his conversion was sincere - which I very much doubt - he would probably have kept in touch with family members.
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:32 pm

Interesting possibility. And, of course, there's the Portuguese royal correspondence concerning both Richard III and his proposed marriage (off the topic of the boys, of course) and their correspondence concerning Brampton.
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:37 pm

I didn't know they had a correspondence about Brampton! What was in it?
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Constantia

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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:32 pm

All I know is that he was some sort of ambassador or official for the king of Portugal, and Henry VII supposedly pardoned him as a result of his services to the English ambassadors to Portugal in 1489, two years after his first association with Perkin Warbeck in 1487 (perhaps not coincidentally, the same year as the Battle of Stoke), and a good eight years before Warbeck showed up claiming to be Richard Duke of York (as he may well have been). The 1489 pardon was for loyally serving Richard III. There's an interesting article called "Sir Edward Brampton & Perkin Warbeck" on the Algarve History Association website. (How accurate it is, I have no idea.) I can't link you to it because I haven't been a member of the forum for seven days and can't yet post URLs, but if you Google "Sir Edward Brampton Algarve History" (no quotation marks) you should find it.

I'm no authority on Perkin Warbeck or Sir Edward Brampton, much less Portuguese royalty, but maybe we can attract the attention of someone who is by changing the thread title. Perkin Warbeck might even need his own category once the discussion gets going. (I can't check to see if he has one already without losing my post.)
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:41 am

OK, I'll do that. It will have to wait till tomorrow evening though, as I have signed up for a week's free trial subscription on a newspaper archive site to do some family research, and I'm frantically trying to get as much out of them as I can before tomorrow afternoon, when I will have to cancel the subscription in order not to get charged £70 which I can't afford!
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:01 am

I recently heard a talk by Chris Skidmore in which he mentioned the Vatican Archives contained an original copy of Vergil's manuscript with his alterations. He said it was very important to have a new look at this manuscript so see if the original stuff which was later altered could still be seen as it would help us to understand what was going on in his mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:12 am

Jan here.
I heard Chris Skidmore talk as well - perhaps at the R3Soc AGM - and I spoke to him afterwards. IIRC he had spotted a difference over the treatment of Christopher Urswick. Maybe Urswick fell out of favour later.
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:34 am

Ah, was that all it was? I got the impression that there might have been other alterations which could prove fruitful and needed further study.

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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:01 am

Thibault wrote:
Ah, was that all it was? I got the impression that there might have been other alterations which could prove fruitful and needed further study.


I share your disappointment and frustration. Still, it might be interesting to learn what the revisions were and speculate about why Vergil made them. Was he toeing the party line or concerned about truth in small matters? (The truth about Richard was, of course, beyond his grasp not only because sources had been destroyed or were inaccessible to him but because he believed that the Tudor had "saved" England from Richard's "tyranny" and viewed any good action by Richard as hypocrisy or desire for atonement.)
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:39 am

From Peter D Clarke, "English Royal Marriages and the Papal Penitentiary in the Fifteenth Century." English Historical Review Vol. CXX 488 (Sept 2005)

ASV, PA, Reg. 20, fo. 48r: "Rome [apud sanctum Petrum], x kal. Maii. Ricardus, dux Glouirestere [sic], laicus Lincolniensis diocesis, et Anna Nevile, mulier Eboracensis diocesis, cupiunt inter se matrimonium contrahere, sed quia tertio et quarto affinitatis gradibus invicem se attinent, quare petunt cum ipsis dispensari. Item cum declaratoria super tertio et quarto. Fiat Ph. Fiat de speciali pro omnibus Phi. episcopus Portuensis." The "pro omnibus" refers to other supplications noted on the same page and approved by the same official, the cardinal penitentiary Filippo Calandrini, appointed bishop of Porto (Portuensis) on 30 Aug 1471.

From discussions on the Yahoo Forum, this is thought to be a second dispensation, the first probably obtained by Warwick at the same time as one was (probably) obtained for George's & Isabel's marriage.
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:16 am

Thanks for this quotation. Does Clarke provide a translation for those of us whose Latin is gathering dust and withering to nothing? (Pretty soon, all I'll remember will be the first- and second-declension paradigms.) Also, I assume that "Reg." means "register" and I know that "fo. 48r" is "folio 48 recto," but what do "ASV" and "PA" stand for?

By the way, I wonder if researchers looking for Richard and Anne's missing first dispensation were searching in the wrong place (the 1471 records). It must have been earlier, around the same time as George and Isabel's, meaning before June 11, 1469. I suspect that Warwick took matters into his own hands somewhat earlier, possibly while Richard was still living with him, but, of course, the answer will be found when those records go online. I wonder if the site will have a Search function, but it will need to allow approximate spellings if the Latin for Gloucester(shire) is incorrect (the papal scribes being unfamiliar with English place-names).

Where is Lincoln diocese, by the way? Would he have been living in Westminster with Edward at that time?
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:23 am

The earliest dispensation reported in this paper is that for Richard's & Edward's sister Margaret, dated 24 Nov 1467, so I suppose if the first dispensations for George, Isabel, Richard & Anne had been in this set of documents (papal penitentiary) the researcher would have found them.

It's been awhile since I read the article & I don't remember if the English translations were given in full or just the important bits.

I don't know what ASV & PA stand for & would have to look at the original article again to see if they are explained there. If you have access to an academic library (or maybe to jstor), this article  is available electronically.
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:10 am

whitehound wrote:
It seems to me that a lot of people, especially "traditionalist" historians, don't think about what it would be like to live in a society where nobody except the monarch and his immediate officers had access to fast communication; where there were no 'phones or TV or radio; where there were no photographs or even much if anything in the way of printed engravings yet; where even realistic painted portraiture was in its infancy.  

They think that because the boys weren't seen at the Tower after a certain date that means that they weren't seen anywhere, but in fact nobody who had not already seen them or their close relatives, or seen a good likeness of them, would have any clear idea what they looked like.  For most people, you were what you were wearing and if they took off their snazzy clothes and turned up as a couple of pages or grooms in Birmingham - or anywhere outside central London - there would be very few people who might recognize them.  So all "no longer at the Tower" means is "no longer at the Tower".


I think "traditionalist" historians are contented to settle for Tudor propaganda because they're required to specialize early in their careers and are encouraged to take the easy road. So they basically look at at the relative dearth of documentation from the 15th century, then look all the lovely piles of documentation from the 16th century and Bob's your uncle. Wearing blinders serves them.

Here's hoping the Vatican records will encourage digging a little deeper into certain Richard III myths and legends.
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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:19 am

whitehound wrote:
I didn't know they had a correspondence about Brampton!  What was in it?

Brampton is the one who carried on Richard's marriage proposal negotiations with Portugal. Richard sent him out to Portugal two weeks after Anne's death.

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PostSubject: Re: Vatican records to be transcribed   Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:16 pm

Wednesday wrote:
whitehound wrote:
I didn't know they had a correspondence about Brampton!  What was in it?

Brampton is the one who carried on Richard's marriage proposal negotiations with Portugal. Richard sent him out to Portugal two weeks after Anne's death.


Funny how I mentioned both Brampton and the proposed marriage in the same message (previous page) and forgot to put the two together! Poor old brain is getting fuzzy, I guess.
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