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 Was Margaret at the sack of Ludlow?

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Constantia

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PostSubject: Was Margaret at the sack of Ludlow?   Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:46 pm

Does anyone know where Margaret of York was when Ludlow was sacked? You read about Cecily Neville standing with her small sons, George and Richard, by the market cross, but Margaret is never mentioned. Yet she's back with her brothers at the Pastons' house in the next known reference to the children ("the Earl of March came every day to see them"). Could it be that she was there at Ludlow but no chronicler thought to mention her because she was a girl? Surely, if Cecily had time to send Margaret to safety, she could have sent the little boys, too.
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Thibault

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PostSubject: Re: Was Margaret at the sack of Ludlow?   Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:16 pm

That would seem a logical assumption, Constantia, however, years of trying to find sources for a whole range of events associated with this period of history has taught me the haphazard nature of what survives and what doesn't.  Very Happy 
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Constantia

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PostSubject: Re: Was Margaret at the sack of Ludlow?   Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:30 am

Thibault wrote:
That would seem a logical assumption, Constantia, however, years of trying to find sources for a whole range of events associated with this period of history has taught me the haphazard nature of what survives and what doesn't.  Very Happy 

Not to mention what is and isn't recorded and contradictory versions of events in different sources. I've even read somewhere that the whole scene with Cecily and her two little boys is imaginary. Does anyone know the source for that scene? (Certainly, Cecily was captured and placed in the custody of her Lancastrian sister, the Duchess of Buckingham, presumably along with her children, so it can't be entirely imaginary.)
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whitehound
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PostSubject: Re: Was Margaret at the sack of Ludlow?   Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:42 pm

IIRC it was said on the RIII Soc forum that the scene with Cecily at Ludlow Cross was just a speculation by Paul Murray Kendal. IIRC Cecily and the boys were staying at a house in the Ludlow area but the idea that they were at the cross is an invention by PMK. It's not impossible, but there's no evidence for it.
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Constantia

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PostSubject: Re: Was Margaret at the sack of Ludlow?   Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:17 pm

whitehound wrote:
IIRC it was said on the RIII Soc forum that the scene with Cecily at Ludlow Cross was just a speculation by Paul Murray Kendal.  IIRC Cecily and the boys were staying at a house in the Ludlow area but the idea that they were at the cross is an invention by PMK.  It's not impossible, but there's no evidence for it.

If so, the scene has certainly appeared in a lot of novels since that time, notably Sharon Kay Penman's The Sunne in Splendour. I'll have to check Kendall, who usually discusses his sources and speculations in his copious notes. Anyway, thanks for the pointer. They would have been staying at Ludlow Castle, the same place where Edward IV's oldest son later stayed as Prince of Wales. I suppose it's possible that the Lancastrians and the children there rather than at the market cross, especially if PMK made the whole thing up! He would also be the reason why Margaret isn't mentioned in these depictions.

I'll see what I can find. I know that Hearne's Fragment mentions the sack of Ludlow but not the market cross. I have in my notes that he gets the boys' ages wrong, but he was writing from memory years after the fact.
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Constantia

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PostSubject: Re: Was Margaret at the sack of Ludlow?   Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:42 pm

Okay, here's what I found in a very bad digital copy of Hearne's Fragment as it appears in Chronicles of the White Rose. The digital text contains two separate depictions of the incident, the first one very short:
Quote :
After the Duke's departure [to Ireland with Edmund of Rutland] Henry rode into Ludlow, and spoiled the town and castle, whereat he found the Duchess of York with her two young sons, then children, the which Duchess King Henry sent to her sister, Anne Duchess of Buckingham.

The second is more detailed and contains the error in the boys' ages that I remembered:
Quote :
After the which departing King Harry rode into Ludlow, and spoiled the Town and Castle, whereat he found the Duchess of York with her two young sons [then] children, the one of thirteen years old, and the other of ten years old: the which Duchess King Harry sent to her sister Anne Duchess of Buckingham. Then after in the 38th year of King Harry, the said Duchess of York being in London, sent her ’foresaid two sons, George and Richard, by sea into the state [city] of Utrecht by [in] Holland, where they remained but a while . . . .

Obviously, the ages in the spring or summer of 1459 would have been nine and six, not thirteen and ten. Utrecht is also a mistake, I think. I'm pretty sure it was Bruges. Either way, not a very pretty picture of the supposedly gentle King "Harry."

By the way, I checked Kendall's notes, and he seems to think that Hearne's Fragment indicates that Cecily was found in the village, so he conjectured that she must have taken her stand by the market cross. Alas for this dramatic little scene with its courageous heroine--as I read the text (both versions), she and the boys were found in the castle and captured there. I guess I can't blame Kendall for not mentioning Margaret since Hearne also omits her, but I wish he hadn't invented that market cross scene. It's as ubiquitous as Philippa Gregory's equally imaginary "Cousins' War" and much more memorable.
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Wednesday
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PostSubject: Re: Was Margaret at the sack of Ludlow?   Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:01 pm

Constantia wrote:
Obviously, the ages in the spring or summer of 1459 would have been nine and six, not thirteen and ten. Utrecht is also a mistake, I think. I'm pretty sure it was Bruges. Either way, not a very pretty picture of the supposedly gentle King "Harry."

By the way, I checked Kendall's notes, and he seems to think that Hearne's Fragment indicates that Cecily was found in the village, so he conjectured that she must have taken her stand by the market cross. Alas for this dramatic little scene with its courageous heroine--as I read the text (both versions), she and the boys were found in the castle and captured there. I guess I can't blame Kendall for not mentioning Margaret since Hearne also omits her, but I wish he hadn't invented that market cross scene. It's as ubiquitous as Philippa Gregory's equally imaginary "Cousins' War" and much more memorable.


The King found her? I thought it was Margaret d'Anjou's captains/troops ravaging the country/Ludlow? (Since she hadn't the funds to pay them, she gave them permission to pillage and plunder as they went?) I'd think Henry VI was either kept safe in Scotland (didn't Margaret set out from Scotland?), or was being sheltered in some tent somewhere by a couple of guards, as he was in later battles?

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PostSubject: Re: Was Margaret at the sack of Ludlow?   Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:36 am

I agree with Constantia - although it's not 100% definite, on balance Hearne's comments sound to me too as though Cecily and the boys were apprehended at the castle, not in the town. Cecily may well have shown spirited defiance - after all her nickname was Proud Cis - but it's unlikely it was at the town cross. If it had been, that would be memorable enough that you'd expect Hearne to say so.

I can't help wondering though whether the boys witnessed part of the sacking, or at least heard about it in detail - it would explain Richard's later unusual degree of concern for civilians.
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