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 Possible grave for Katherine Plantagenet?

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Thibault

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PostSubject: Possible grave for Katherine Plantagenet?   Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:43 am

I saw something on another RIII related forum that someone (not sure who) thinks they have the location of the grave of Richard's daughter, Katherine. Has anyone heard anything about this?
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khafara

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PostSubject: Re: Possible grave for Katherine Plantagenet?   Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:13 pm

This was announced during the Study Weekend in York earlier this month.

The first lecture came with a huge new find. Christian Steer announced that he had been looking at a document which contains a list of burials in the London church of St John Garlickhithe, and it includes the burial of Richard's daughter Katherine, Countess of Huntingdon. He's going to write an article about it for the Ricardian.

More on this here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=228862537305714&set=a.136249173233718.1073741839.135541839971118&type=1
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whitehound
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PostSubject: Re: Possible grave for Katherine Plantagenet?   Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:29 am

Now that will be very interesting. I wonder if any cause of death is given, or even an accurate date, or is it just a bare-bones list of names?

Over 20 years ago now I had a boyfriend in Edinburgh named Norman, who sadly died about 18 months after I met him, and who was very keen on Richard. Norman was extremely intelligent - he was a programmer for the NHS in the days when programmers were rare and rarified - but he was also an alcoholic, which confuses the issue when it comes to trusting information derived from him.

Norman claimed that some time in the 1970s or 1980s he had been doing some research associated with an item in the Scottish Portrait Gallery, and had come across a document which indicated to him that Richard's daughter Katherine had died in childbirth and that the baby, another Katherine, had survived and had been sent to Scotland to keep her away from the Tudors, subsequently marrying into the Wishart family.

There is certainly nothing impossible or even improbable about this - the national Scottish archives in Edinburgh contain many Mediaeval documents which the public can examine, and didn't Lovel have Scottish contacts after Bosworth? However, Norman hadn't made notes at the time, thinking that he would always remember what it was that he had seen, and his worsening drink problem meant that by the time I knew him he had forgetten what it was (assuming his story to be genuine in the first place, and not the product of drunken confusion).

All I was able to establish was that the thing was possible. The Wishart family, which is split into two main lines, has been very well-documented, but at the time that I was checking this, in the mid to late '90s, there was a gap in the early 16th C where the names of two women who had married into the Wishart family were not recorded, so it's certainly feasible that there could be a document somewhere in the archives, naming one of them as "Katherine, daughter of the late Countes of Huntingdon".

If Norman was right - and bearing in mind the two branches of the Wisharts, only one of which would be connected to Richard - there's about a 50% chance that Richard was line-ancestral to the bloke wot used to play the keyboards in Runrig, and is now a campaigning MSP.

I wonder if there is anybody alive today who can be traced as descended in an unbroken female line from either of those two unnamed women who married into the Wisharts at the time that Norman claimned to have seen Richard's granddaughter do so? If so a mitochondrial DNA test could prove or disprove Norman's theory.
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Thibault

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PostSubject: Re: Possible grave for Katherine Plantagenet?   Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:39 am

I'll look forward to reading the article when it appears in the Ricardian. Now, all someone has to do is find John of Gloucester!
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Katherine

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PostSubject: Re: Possible grave for Katherine Plantagenet?   Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:49 pm

Thank you whitehound for that very interesting information about  the Wishart family.  Worth persuing I think?
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Constantia

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PostSubject: Re: Possible grave for Katherine Plantagenet?   Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:41 pm

Several articles on Richard's daughter Katherine have already come out. The most important one is "The Children in the Care of Richard III: New References. A Lawsuit between Peter Curteys, Keeper of Richard III's Great Wardrobe, and Thomas Lynom, Solicitor of Richard III, 1495-1301" by Anne Sutton and Livia Visser-Fuchs (with Hannes Kleineke), pp. 31-62 of the 2014 Ricardian (vol. XXIV). The one you're looking for, "The Plantagenet in the Parish: Richard III's Daughter in Medieval London" by Christian Steer, is on pp. 63-73 of the same volume. Steer speculates that Katherine died in London of the sweating sickness. But the question for me is why was Katherine in London instead of Wales? Did Henry summon/order her to court? If so, and if she died of sweating sickness as a result, he would be indirectly responsible for yet another Plantagenet death.

There's also a brief article referencing the other two in the September 2014 Ricardian Bulletin, "Katherine Plantagenet, Countess of Huntingdon" by Peter Hammond, p. 40.
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